Why selvage?

[ikkyu]

a shuttle loom, is a shuttle loom. they all produce the effect i like.

a projectile loom is a projectile loom. they make a very nice smooth fabric.

japan does NOT have all old looms, and never did. it was an evisu marketing trick. check here: denim news

cone mills developed selvedge fabric for levis and has never stopped making it.

shuttle loom fabric is NOT rare. they can make alot of it. it IS expensive because of the slow process and narrow fabric.

the cost is what makes it "rare" in the market, because many buyers dont see the added cost as justified. fair enough. most dont.

i do, but only if it is combined with real indigo dye. will post a few pics of my indigo dyed pants and also a t-shirt.

[ikkyu]

Selvage denim (also called selvedge denim) is a type of denim which forms a clean natural edge that does not unravel. It is commonly presented in the unwashed or raw state. Typically, the selvage edges will be located along the outseam of the pants, making it visible when cuffs are worn. Although selvage denim is not completely synonymous with unwashed denim, the presence of selvage typically implies that the denim used is a higher quality.
The word "selvage" comes from the phrase "self-edge" and denotes denim made on old-style shuttle looms. These looms weave fabric with one continuous cross thread (the weft) that is passed back and forth all the way down the length of the bolt. As the weft loops back into the edge of the denim it creates this “self-edge” or Selvage. Selvage is desirable because the edge can’t fray like lower grade denims that have separate wefts which leave an open edge that must be stitched. Shuttle looming is a more time-consuming weaving process that produces denim of a tighter weave resulting in a heavier weight fabric that lasts.
Shuttle looms weave a more narrow piece of fabric, and thus a longer piece of fabric is required to make a pair of jeans (approximately 3 yards). To maximize yield, traditional jean makers use the fabric all the way to the selvage edge. When the cuff is turned up the two selvage edges, where the denim is sewn together, can be seen. The selvage edge is usually stiched with colored thread: green, white, brown, yellow, and red (red is the most common). Fabric mills used these colors to differentiate between fabrics.
Most selvage jeans today are dyed with synthetic indigo, but natural indigo dye is available in smaller niche denim labels. Loop dying machines feed a rope of cotton yarn through vats of indigo dye and then back out. The dye is allowed to oxidize before the next dip. Multiple dips create a deep dark indigo blue.
In response to increased demand for jeans in the 1950's, American denim manufacturers replaced the old shuttle style looms with modern projectile looms. The new looms produced fabric faster and wider (60-inches or wider), yet lighter and less durable. Synthetic dyeing techniques along with post-dye treatments were introduced to control shrink and twist.
Raw selvage is material that has not been washed once undergoing the dying process. It is especially desirable because the material will fade in the creases and folds of the jeans. This process is known as whiskering.[4]

[UK2004]

Originally Posted by Pringle

It appears that it's yet another case of me not being allowed to have an opinion because it doesn't fit with other views. Just because my opinion might differ to others doesn't mean I cant have it. I haven't ignored any points, just dismissed them because the points put across don't really matter to me in the sense they still don't offer a valid enough argument as to why one should shell out extra mula for selvage. I know the japanese jeans fade nice and they look the shit but I just find them a real pita to fanny arse around pre shrinking then getting them tailored etc. And I'm not digging at the quality at all or slagging them off from a quality standpoint (again people putting words in my mouth) I am mainly digging at the crappy cuts of most the japanese brands. I know some of the Jap brands offer decent cuts but most don't to my mind.

The comment about women was a childish rebuttal back at Candleguys ridiculous comment and was intended that way. I guess that one went over your head? Who said I was assuming anything regarding peoples incomes? I'm just saying that Italian jeans (talking Armani, Valentino, D&G here not over priced Roberto Cavalli) are cheaper generally speaking and they may not be up to the japanese stuff in terms of denim quality and fades, but that's reflected in the price.

I think Armani jeans and Boss are better than Ralph Lauren and Hilfiger. As for Roberto Cavalli, I cant stand the brand I think it looks like over-priced tat and most is horribly gaudy and looks too metro. The jeans look really cheap looking and over-priced for what they are.

Either way, no ones proved me anything worthwhile in regards to why I should shell out on Japanese selvage. I think I will just stick to my inferior italian jeans until I find a pair of Evisu's that fit nice.- I think I will live *sob*

Nobody said you can't have an opinion stop beign like a spoilt childm like everyone is against me, that's rubbish. I've asked but you didn't answer, which brands have you tried on to say that the cut is crappy? Many D and G jeans are around 120 to 145 a pair many japanese jeans can be had for this price if you shop around or ship from japan. If you say in your post that a woman would prefer someone with money to buy her a drink in their pocket than someone with japanese jeans its intimating they won't be able to afford to buy her a drink because they have a japanese brand denim, why else woudl you mention that??????????

You sem to think that anything over what you pay is overpriced, do you not consider D and G and Armani jeans overpriced? No because you get them, why are Roberto Cavalli overpriced when they are a different dneim to Just Cavalli which is a similar price point to D and G? Boss still are German in oprigin and tailoring I wouldn't classify them as Italian jeans. It just seems you look at a few products online then throw these statements having a go at something for no reason? By all means try them on and own some and then say what disappointed you but to just start insulting japanese denim adn saying the fit is crap is ridiculous.

[CD]

Let's keep this clean please people!!

Try & stop with personal comments etc as it has no relevance to the discussion

Pringle : I just noticed that you said you've seen pictures of selvedge jeans!
I'm thinking that these pics have been in online stores? If so chances are the denim won't have shrunk and would be baggy as they would be in their raw state! Maybe this isn't a good way to make judgement as the majority will be larger/baggier - even the slim fits.
Just a thought?

[Pringle]

Originally Posted by CD

Let's keep this clean please people!!

Try & stop with personal comments etc as it has no relevance to the discussion

Pringle : I just noticed that you said you've seen pictures of selvedge jeans!
I'm thinking that these pics have been in online stores? If so chances are the denim won't have shrunk and would be baggy as they would be in their raw state! Maybe this isn't a good way to make judgement as the majority will be larger/baggier - even the slim fits.
Just a thought?

Suck my balls *****.

[UK2004]

Originally Posted by done-diesel

what japanese denm jeans do you own uk2004? i have 2 pairs of sugar canes and 1 pair of edwin.

from what i can see people have been talking about how the argument for the uniqueness of most japanese denim is questionable. the argument appears to pin on the old shuttle looms producing unique characterisctics within the weaver as opposed to the new shuttle looms which do not. as people have pointed out there are not enough remaining old shuttle looms to produce all the japanese selvedge denim on the market so on this basis there appears an inconsistancy, which i would tend to agree with.

i think its very easy to get anal about denim for certain mind-sets (i might fall into that category ) but we mustn't forget that there are a lot of unscruplous marketeers who are looking to take advantage by injecting misleading information and ambiguity to try to sell more and i think that's what people hear have been questioning.

I have 8 or so pairs of Evisu including some no 1 special and other heritage and some eu ed, would have to go and count them in the clothing room, have some Levi's Vintage as well technically Amrican but Japanese type jean totally raw unwashed. I tried on some Sugar Canes but didn't have ym size but were lovely jeans and the fades on worn pairs are extremely impressive, orderng some Smaurai, S'A and Canes and possibly Eternals from Japan, very impressed with what I own and have tried on.

[UK2004]

Originally Posted by Pringle

Ok, Japanese jeans and Cavalli are the best things going. I'm acting like a spoilt kid.

I see the silly comment regarding women is still baffling you? You're pulling it way out of context. I guesss you're one of those people who lives in a bubble and cant accept a bit of dry humour or a differing opinion to your own? Get over it.

As said before I've tried on Evisu's and the cut was crap. And you only have to look at pictures to see most selvage jeans are all saggy on the arse. But I still open to the idea of tracking down a good pair that fit, as Evisu seem to do a very large range.

All fashion is overpriced, some brands moreso than others. Cavalli fits into the latter category. I know the difference of Roberto and Just, but thanks for insulting my intelligence and yes Dolce and gabbana is different to D&G. Zegna sport is different to Zegna Couture bla bla..

Ok, I'm ridiculous. Never said Boss were Italian jeans. It seems to me you read my posts and twist them into your own meaning. Ah well.

Obviously you are hurt by my comments? Get over it, it's just clothing.

You sem to constantly avoid what I'ma sking you and just try to get personal, what's the point? As I stated you are more than welcome toy our opinion but talkng a load of rubbish about Japanese jeans you've sene on websites in unwashed state is stupid. It's very clear you don't like people to debate your comments, you basically want to make a statement and nobody challenge it if they do challenge it they are upset, don't worry I'm not upset at all I'm very amused and your hatred for Japanese denim brands, it's amusing. Glad you're the judge of how overpriced different brands of clothing are, good skill!

[UK2004]

You still can't get it into your head that nobody is saying you can't have an opinion.

[Pringle]

Originally Posted by UK2004

You still can't get it into your head that nobody is saying you can't have an opinion.

Suck my balls. Go tug over your overpriced tat.

[UK2004]

Not annoyed me at all I was a bit worried that you thought it was a dictatorship and I didn't want your opinion beign aired, this forum thrives on debate and nothing wrong with a heated debate, better than just seeing pictures posted all day!